On today’s episode, Tim and Valerie talk about a variety of topics, including the what permission, content and outreach are and how to keep track of them. First, Valerie shares what the response to her author update she talked about on last week’s show was and why she thinks that even though the idea was unconventional, it still worked. She then shares how she tracks her different marketing activities, using a spreadsheet and Tim advises her on what to do differently. They also delve in these different facets of marketing and the relative importance of each, along with how much energy to dedicate to each task. He then gives Valerie a challenge to kickstart her outreach. For this and much more, join us today!
Key Points From This Episode:
- Solutions look different based on the services you are providing.
- Why knowing your audience is powerful.
- If you use the basics of marketing, you can be flexible in your execution.
- Why engagement is more important than numbers on an email list.
- Promotion creates opportunities that would not be possible to do alone.
- How to find the balance between permission, content and outreach.
- What permission is.
- Why outreach is the most difficult marketing activity.
- Permission, outreach and content are different, but not separable.
- How much of your time should be spent on outreach.
- How Tim think Valerie’s spreadsheet can be fixed.
- Some other outreach strategies.
- Don’t be afraid to ask for advice from someone doing the same thing as you.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Tim Grahl — https://booklaunch.com/
Tim on Twitter — https://twitter.com/timgrahl
Valerie Francis — https://valeriefrancis.ca/
Valerie on Twitter — https://twitter.com/valerie_francis
The Story Grid Editor Roundtable Podcast — https://valeriefrancis.ca/podcast/
Running Down a Dream — https://www.amazon.com/Running-Down-Dream-Winning-Creative/dp/1936891557
Book Launch Coaching — https://booklaunch.com/coaching/
Marketing resources — https://booklaunch.com/book-marketing-resources/
[0:00:00.5] TG: Hello and welcome to the Book Launch Show. I am Tim Grahl. In this episode, Valerie and talk around a lot of different things. One of the main things we hit on is understanding the difference between permission content and outreach, how to keep track of those, how to think about those.
It’s a really hopefully, clarifying episode. I really drive home a point about outreach that I think is really important. I think you’ll like that. Also, I just want to mention, just in the last week I’ve had four people e-mail me wanting to hire me. That’s even though on the website, I say that I’m not available for hire. I totally get that. But right now I’m just really booked up and I just want to let that if you want some help with your book launch, if you want some help building your platform, if you just want some coaching on book marketing, we have a small group of highly trained, really great book launch coaches. They’re at booklaunch.com/coaching. They’ve gone through a lot of training to make their way onto that page. I highly recommend you reach out to them.
I don’t get paid for you hiring them. They don’t give me a cut or anything. I don’t make any money off of you hiring them. This is just my way of providing support, so that you can get the support you need for your book marketing for your book launch efforts. I highly recommend you check that out if you’re wanting some one-on-one support.
Also want to mention that I have lots of articles and trainings and downloads and all kinds of things. If you’re wanting to really delve into a lot of book marketing stuff, that’s available at booklaunch.com/resources; lots of book marketing resources there as well. Go ahead and check that out as well.
For now, let’s go ahead and jump into this episode and get started.
This podcast is all about marketing, launching your book. If you’re an author and you have a book, a book coming out, book already out, you’re doing something special, you’re doing something that most people are afraid to do, in my opinion. They’re actually going after that thing that they want. Everybody says they want to write a book. You’ve actually done it. You’re actually doing it. What that means is that you have a dream that you’re trying to accomplish. You have this idea of the writer you want to be, the kind of life you want to live, the kind of artist you want to be.
I wrote my book Running Down a Dream: Your Road Map to Winning Creative Battles for people just like you. Based on my last decade of overcoming my creative battles, of being stuck in the mud, stuck feeling I’m always going to be a failure, stuck, feeling like this thing that I want is stupid and never going to happen. And I wrote this book to share the true journey of what this looks like. A lot of self-help books, a lot of books about creativity, they share, oh, what was really hard. Then look at all the awesome stuff I learned.
This book is different. It will walk you through what I think the real story of running down a dream really, really looks like. I put everything in there. On top of that, I put the tools I learned along the way. If you know anything about me and my work, I can’t help but be practical. I took that story of running down my dream, of chasing what I wanted in life, of overcoming creative battles and I broke it down into really practical tools that you can apply to overcome your own creative demons.
Running Down a Dream is out now. It’s at Amazon and all the other different places that you can buy books. It’s available audio book, e-book and paperback. Check it out, buy a copy, share it with a friend and it’s a great way to support this show. Thanks.
[INTRO]
[0:04:02.0] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the Book Launch Podcast, helping authors launch and market their books.
[EPISODE]
[0:04:09.3] VF: Hey, Tim. How are you today?
[0:04:11.8] TG: I’m fine. Good to talk to you, Valerie.
[0:04:14.1] VF: Yeah. I’m feeling a little like the bees knees this week. Remember last week when we spoke, I had an idea for my author update. It was a bit different and I’m still not sure, even when I listened back to the recording, I’m still not sure if I convinced you whether it was a good idea or not. I did anyway.
[0:04:36.7] TG: By the end you had convinced me.
[0:04:38.2] VF: Okay, good. Because I did it anyway. I got a lot of really great feedback from people. My author update was there, but it was hidden in the story. One person e-mailed me and it was someone who was a writer, who didn’t know about this particular podcast and found out about it, because I had mentioned it in this little story. She going to be listening to this episode now, so hello!
That was fun. In fact, five minutes after it went out, I got a text from one of my friends, who she reads all this stuff just cause she’s my friend. I didn’t even know what she was texting me about, because it was so quick after when I sent it out. People really loved it from people who I know really well and friends, to people who are on the list who I haven’t interacted with as much. I think it’s going to work. I think it’s going to work.
[0:05:40.2] TG: Good. You see, this is why you shouldn’t listen to me.
[0:05:44.6] VF: Well, I did listen to you. I just took a different take. I was hoping I was ticking the marketing boxes that needed to be ticked, but presenting the material in a way that was a little more interesting. Again, because I’m trying to promote my fiction and myself as an author. If I was promoting my editing services, I don’t think this approach would work very well, because a writer who has an issue with her story is going to want the solution to the issue. She’s not going to want to read a whole story from me to find the solution to her problem.
What she’s going to want is a quick bullet list of here are the articles I wrote and here’s the topics, so that you can go and find the solution to your problem as quickly as possible. I think with readers, the problem they had or have, and I’m including myself in this as a reader, what I’m looking for is entertainment, right? I thought if I could give my author update in an entertaining way, it would encourage people to read it, while also knowing what I’m up to as a writer.
I’m going to keep going with it, because people seem to like it. It seemed to get some interaction. My newsletters never got any feedback ever. The fact that I stopped – I started to gather the comments, because I wanted to show you. I stopped gathering them, because there were quite a few.
[0:07:15.6] TG: That’s great.
[0:07:16.8] VF: One of the person – one of the persons. One of the people on my list actually has a magazine for writers, Author Success Stories. She asked if she could include it in her magazine as the slice of life section. She’s going to do that with my photo and web address. So that was really fun. Yeah. Yay.
[0:07:35.9] TG: Yeah. I mean, and I think I came to this conclusion when we talked, but it was basically there’s guidelines that we need to hit and then there’s ways that I would do it. There’s this fuzzy line that sometimes I can’t always see. That’s like, it’s hitting all the marks that it needs to hit. It’s just not how I would go about doing it. That doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, it just means I won’t necessarily like it, because that’s not how I would go about doing it. I think it’s great that you went with your gut on that and that you’re already getting such great feedback. Yeah, I think you made the right decision, obviously
[0:08:22.6] VF: It just comes back to the conversation we’ve had a couple of times now on personas. That was a really challenging exercise, but a very valuable one, because if I didn’t have that sheet in front of me with my four personas that I had created, I wouldn’t have come up with this particular idea, which clearly has resonated with the people on my list. You’re not one of my personas, either.
[0:08:49.3] TG: That’s true. Yeah. I mean, that’s the point, right? You’re not writing it for, because you’re not who I am – I’m in the middle of my course author platform 101. I’m in the middle of recording version two of it. It’s funny, as I go through this stuff, I remind myself about it, because most of the time when I talk about this stuff, it’s in the way that you and I do, which is bits and pieces here and there over a long period of time.
Whenever I’m forced to sit down and put it in order, I remember the first – when I was writing the first draft of Your First 1,000 copies, it was like, the hardest part was taking all of this stuff I knew and putting it into a form where it made sense from point A to point Z. Yes, just yesterday I was recording, I was talking about content and the whole – right, so I talk about permission, content and outreach.
The reason why you put out content is to signal to the right people that you’re right for them, right? It’s like a good book cover signals to people that this book is for you. With the content you’re putting out in the newsletter, you’re signaling to the right people that you’re a good fit for them. Where if I got that e-mail, I would get halfway through and it’d be like, “I’m good,” which is the whole point.
I think again, that’s right where when we reached this – you had gotten to the point where you wanted to do the update, you knew what the goals were and then you were deciding based on your knowledge of your audience exactly how to go about that. I didn’t love it, because I’m not your audience.
[0:10:35.6] VF: It’s interesting. I’m watching – I mentioned last time that I cleaned up my subscriber list a little bit. I’m watching the list change. I don’t necessarily have a lot more subscribers, but new people are subscribing and other people are unsubscribing, because my focus now is not necessarily for them, which is fine, which is totally cool. The list that I have has been created from a mishmash of different marketing activities, so they may have thought I was for them before. Now they’re thinking, “oh, yeah. Okay, I can see where she’s going and that’s not what I’m interested in.” That’s cool. I think it’s all positive and it’s a step in the right direction for helping me find the other people who are interested in the things that I’m interested in. I’m chalking it up as a win.
[0:11:26.9] TG: Yeah, for sure. A lot of people stress, because I’ve had authors say they want to stop sending e-mails, so the people will stop unsubscribing. Because every time they send an e-mail, people unsubscribe. I’m like, “man, they’re just saving you money because you pay for your list based on how many people are on it. If people are unsubscribing, they were never going to buy anything from you anyway. They’re just saving you hassle. They’re dead weight.” Really looking at the engagement, how many people are engaging with you is the – the fact that you had more feedback on this e-mail than anything you’ve sent, I mean that’s really good.
[0:12:06.6] VF: The other thing that happened since we spoke last is that one of the podcasts that I did an interview for went live and I got some really great feedback on that as well. When we talked about the autoresponders was quite a few weeks ago now. I set up my autoresponders. One of the things you had suggested I do is let people know about something else I’ve done, right? Have a look at my website and here’s an interview I did that you might find interesting.
Well, I didn’t really have much to use there because everything I’d been doing for the last year was all me as an editor, not me as a writer. Now that this interview has gone live and it’s a podcast, but she also posts it to YouTube, so I have a video that I can use. I went back and updated my auto-responders with that particular interview.
[0:12:56.7] TG: Oh, great. Perfect.
[0:12:58.4] VF: That was good. Oh, and the weird thing that happened, like wonderfully weird, in that interview, it was Rachael Herron’s, it’s her podcast and Raichel asked me about my writing process. I said, “well, I have a little affirmation that I repeat to myself. When I wake up, I get up. When I get up, I write.” One of her listeners took that and created a meme or something from it. This popped up in my Twitter feed. This designed version of my quote. It was weird and wonderful all at the same time. A bit Twilight zone-ish. This popped up in my Twitter feed and my Instagram feed and that was – it was cool. That will probably be the topic of my next author update.
[0:13:46.1] TG: Yeah. The way that I picture everything marketing, I can’t remember if we’ve talked about this, is everything is just a spark. You’re starting spark after spark, after spark, after spark. Most of them immediately die. Then some of them take off and take a life of their own. There’s no way that you could make that happen directly, but just doing the thing which is promoting, promoting, promoting creates opportunities that you couldn’t have come across yourself.
[0:14:20.6] VF: Yeah. It was fun. It was cool. I took a screenshot of that.
[0:14:25.9] TG: That’s great.
[0:14:27.3] VF: Let’s see, what else do I have here? Okay, so now that I’m starting to do outreach, I’m starting to get some coherent approach to my marketing. I wanted to come up with some way to track what I’m doing. Again, I went back to my handy-dandy spreadsheet and I just started at the beginning of the beginning of this month when I started to do – when the podcast that I was a guest on, when that first came out.
If you look at the spreadsheet I created, it’s pretty simple. I just have a list of a couple of columns, the date, the marketing activity. Then I’ve got four columns for the connection system and then a column for any notes that I want to make to myself. Because I’m trying to make sure I have a balance of activities, right? Outreach, content and permission. Then of course, there’s sales, but I haven’t even gotten to that one yet.
When I look at my outreach, okay, that’s the podcast that I’m doing. Primarily, that’s the podcast I’m doing, because even this podcast that I’m on right now is more content than anything else. The Story Grid Editor Round Table podcast, that’s content. That’s content technically for me as an editor. If you look there, I’ve got an X, but I’ve got an E next to it, because it’s Valerie as editor, not Valerie as writer.
[0:15:49.1] TG: Right. Yeah. That’s what I was going to say.
[0:15:51.1] VF: That tells me, I think I have some work to do there. Outreach is the podcast that I’m going on as a guest, right? Like the one with Raechel Herron. Permission is well, that’s getting people to sign up to my list, but I’m thinking about it as the way I develop the relationship with the people on my list. That’s my book club and my author updates. Am I categorizing that right?
[0:16:15.7] TG: There may be a fundamental flaw in how you’re trying to track this.
[0:16:20.3] VF: What a surprise. Okay. Lay it on me.
[0:16:25.3] TG: Permission is a way to get people’s attention and drive action, right? That’s an e-mail list. That is trying to get people on the e-mail list. Once you have your homepage with a good e-mail sign up, you basically have everything set up to drive people to your e-mail list. You’re mostly done with permission, as far as – Okay. Again, let’s look at typical marketing sales things, like a funnel. This is all you’re building is a funnel.
Well, once you have the funnel, most of the work, right? We’re thinking about an actual real funnel, right, where you put it in a bottle and you’re pouring something in the top. Once you have the funnel, most of the work is just pouring stuff in the top. What I have found is once you have your e-mail list set up, once you are creating, right? The thing you’re sending out, the author update is content that you’re creating every month. Once you’ve got that going, that goes on autopilot. Then most of your activities should be on outreach.
Once you have the e-mail list set up, you’re sending stuff out twice a month to the e-mail list. That part is just going, right? Even though you’re having to create stuff, you’re not coming up with new ideas. You’re just doing the thing, right?
There shouldn’t be an extreme amount of new activity around that, other than what the system you’ve already created, because we’ve decided, okay, you’re going to do this for six months and see how it goes. You’re not coming up with new ideas on what to do.
You don’t really need to keep track of what you’re doing for permission, because you’re done setting that up. That’s why when I talk about this, I always say outreach is the hardest, because you have to constantly be doing it. Where everything else, you set it up and put it on autopilot. I have friends that literally set it up and put it on autopilot. I have a friend who has three years of e-mails, weekly e-mails, so 150 e-mails set up in an automated system, so that when people sign up on her website, they get three years’ worth of e-mails, promoting different pieces of content in on a regular cycle, promoting her courses and stuff. It 100% runs on autopilot and then all of her work is driving people to that thing.
In that extreme example, 100% of her work is outreach. I would say the whole point of setting all that stuff up is so that you can go to do outreach and are confident that you have a system to catch it, right? Because a lot of people will say, like get an opportunity to speak at a conference in front of a hundred people, and so they go and speak. Maybe five or 10 people that were in the audience buy a copy of their book. Then it’s like, they have a bucket and it just has holes in the bottom. They get in front of all these people, but they have no way to catch them, right?
My thing is I get an e-mail list set up, right? You could look at your website this way. If you have a website, but no e-mail list sign-up, no way for you to stay in contact with people long-term. Your website is like a bucket with no bottom. All these people are coming to your website and then they fall right out the bottom and you never see them again.
The whole point of setting up the e-mail list is to catch those people and then keep them engaged. Well, once that set up, you’re – that’s done. Now your job is to just pour as many people in the top as possible.
[0:20:18.2] VF: All right. I wondered about this, because I had my book club and the author updates as content first and I thought, well maybe they’re actually permission and then I thought, I’m spending too much time worrying about this.
[0:20:35.2] TG: You have to have all three. They all interact, right? Permission without content would be getting people on an e-mail list and never sending them anything, right? Every outreach opportunity, almost every outreach opportunity you have is content-driven, right? You get on a podcast and for 30 minutes you share a content. Or you do a book giveaway, right? It’s some giveaway. It’s some content, because again, your content is dividing people, whether they’re in or out of your tribe.
My thing is, okay, great, you’ve got your e-mail list set up, people are signing up. That’s awesome. Okay, you’ve got a plan for keeping those people engaged with the book club and the author updates. Perfect. Keep doing that. Okay, that’s done. Now your job is to get as many people into that as possible and that’s outreach.
Now 90% of your 90% to 95% of your marketing time should be on outreach. The place that most people make a mistake is because outreach is hard and uncomfortable, they keep churning on getting their website perfect, or writing another blog post, or putting more stuff on social media. They’re avoiding the outreach part, which is the only way to make any of it work.
[0:22:04.5] VF: Because the content is so much easier, right?
[0:22:06.7] TG: It is because you control it. One, as authors we’re content producing machines. We’re used to create content. As authors, it’s comfortable. The other side is again, you 100% control it and it does not require putting yourself out there for rejection, the same way the outreach is. My thing is get all that set and get a system going. The whole point of a system is so you don’t have to think about it, right?
You don’t have to think about, “well, how many e-mail am I going to send out this month? Or what am I going to put in the e-mails this month?” You’re like, “okay, whatever the next book is. Okay, whatever’s happened in the –” You already know the answers to those questions for the next six months. Now all of the creative energy of what to do should be going into outreach.
[0:22:59.0] VF: Doing this exercise one, it helps me stay organized and I’m a visual person, so now I can look at a spreadsheet and see exactly what I’m heavy on and where the weaknesses are. That’s good.
[0:23:13.8] TG: This podcast, the Story Grid Round Table Podcast, those things don’t count. They shouldn’t even be on here. While they may tangentially find new readers of your fiction, they’re not really finding new readers of your fiction.
[0:23:26.1] VF: Right. That’s why I put the E next to them, because that allowed me to look at it and say, “oh, I got a problem here.”
[0:23:32.2] TG: I think you should have a spreadsheet that is tracking only your outreach endeavors. That’s what I do. I have an outreach spreadsheet that I use for everything that I keep track of all of my outreach. Because outreach is the only thing that constantly requires new – I don’t know how to put this. It’s like, you do four podcasts, okay, you now have to go find four more. Right now, it gets easier, but there is no rhythm, you know what I mean? Where it’s like, I’m sending out an e-mail every week, or I’ve already set up my website to get e-mail subscribers, so I don’t have to keep setting up my website to get e-mail subscribers, although people love to do that.
Now it’s like, okay, you’ve done, what is it? Four podcasts you’ve got yes’s on, you need to get four more and then you need to get four more and then you need to turn those into some partnership, where you’re promoting one, their book and they’re promoting yours, so that you both get e-mail subscribers. Then you need to go speak somewhere, as an author of women’s fiction to a crowd of people that read women’s fiction, so that you can get people to sign up. It’s constant outreach to get your e-mail list to the point where you’ve got 5,000 women on there that love your type of fiction.
[0:24:55.2] VF: Okay. One of the questions you asked me, a few podcasts ago, I can’t remember when everything is blending in, but one of the questions that you asked me was, where do your readers hang out?
I have been investigating that and doing some search. I mean there’s podcasts, yes. Again, it would be easier. Podcast is easier for Valerie, the editor as opposed to Valerie, the fiction writer, so I thought, “where else do avid readers hang out?” I found a couple of places. Have you heard of Booktubers?
[0:25:27.0] TG: Wait, you mean as a class of people? There’s lots of different Booktubers, right? You’re not talking about one specific –
[0:25:34.5] VF: No. They’re primarily in the – now this is preliminary research, but they’re primarily young adults book reviewers, right?
[0:25:41.8] TG: Yeah, yeah. I’ve heard of them.
[0:25:43.7] VF: Right. We talked about turning my book club into at some point, other forms of content like an audio file, or video file. I thought, “okay, there’s a group of readers who are interested enough in books to subscribe heavily to Booktubers.” There are some, they’re reviewing women’s fiction. When I say some, I mean some of those videos have 100,000 views, like insane number.
This is the reason I’m bringing it up, because the numbers are insane. I thought, okay, that’s one place I can look at. There are other groups like Litsy, which is like Good Reads, but without the commercial infrastructure around it. I’m watching Eloisa James, who’s a romance writer. I’m watching how she’s using Litsy to interact with her readers and to develop a relationship with them. I’m using her as a case study. It’s fascinating stuff because these are avid readers. They’re there to talk about books.
She’s doing a lot of the same things that I’m doing with my book club. She’s just doing it in, Litsy see, right? She’s talking about, here’s a book that she’s read that she really loved. Here’s an author she’s heard about that she wants to investigate, and she’s engaging with the readers just about books that they love. This is the common area of interest, right?
Those are a couple of other areas that I’m investigating in addition to podcasts. I don’t have a strategy yet. I haven’t really done anything with it. I’m just asking myself the question, where do my readers hang out?
[0:27:26.9] TG: Who was the author that you said is doing that on there?
[0:27:29.9] VF: Eloisa James.
[0:27:31.8] TG: Is she huge, or –
[0:27:34.1] VF: Yes. There may be other authors on there doing it. She’s just the one I started with.
[0:27:40.3] TG: I would e-mail her and ask her what she’s doing and if it’s working and just ask her two simple questions. “Hey, I saw you’re on Litsy doing such and such. I’m an author of The Masquerade Series. I was just curious, what are you doing? Are you finding that it’s helping connecting with your readers?” Something like that, and just see if she’ll respond and tell you.
[0:28:03.1] VF: That’ll be an interesting experiment. Why not?
[0:28:07.0] TG: Yeah. I do this all the time. I can’t remember if I told you this on here, but I have this friend who’s really always at the cutting-edge of the internet marketing stuff and the video core stuff. My goal is to be a year behind him, right? I let him do all this stuff and spend all the money to figure out what’s working and then he’ll – then I just learned from him and I just do – I’ll just stay a year behind him. I joke with him about all the time.
It reminds me of my dad’s way of turning down multilevel marketers that are like, “hey, I’m going to retire in five years or whatever.” He’s like, “okay, come back in a year. Show me how you’re going to retire in four years and I’ll sign up and I’ll just retire a year after you, you and I’ll be happy.” Of course, they never come back. My thing is if you find somebody who’s doing something that seems like it’s working, just ask them what they’re doing. Don’t try to figure it out on your own. Most people will just tell you.
If you find three or four authors that are doing stuff on there that seemed to be really active, one of them will have an e-mail, or even get on the phone with you and have a conversation about what they’re doing. I don’t know. There’s too many things for me to personally keep up with. Your instincts are right of you’re like, “okay, here’s a possible thing, right?” I would just reach out to authors that are being active on there and get them to teach you what they’ve gone through a year and a half of learning, so you don’t have to go through that process.
[0:29:49.2] VF: This sounds like homework.
[0:29:51.3] TG: That does sound like homework. Yeah, I mean the –
[0:29:55.6] VF: Me and Eloisa hanging out.
[0:29:58.4] TG: I mean, the principle is very simple, is if you see somebody doing something that’s working, get them to teach you so you don’t have to go through the process of learning it yourself.
[0:30:10.4] VF: Which is what I’m doing with you.
[0:30:11.8] TG: Exactly. Yeah. It speeds up the process. I always think it’s a paying it forward thing of you’ll do it for somebody else. It’s not you’re just mooching off of people ahead of you because what you may find is that they might say, “I don’t think it helps my book sales at all. I just really enjoy it.” Oh, okay. That means if we’re talking strictly marketing, it’s a waste of time. It’s like being on Instagram. It feels good, doesn’t really do anything. What I would rather you do is figure that out before you spend eight months trying to build something on it.
[0:30:51.2] VF: I’m going to do a little more digging into Litsy, just to see what other authors are there and what they’re doing, so that I can have a couple of people that I can reach out to.
[0:31:00.4] TG: Yeah, I think that’d be good.
[0:31:01.7] VF: That’s my homework.
[0:31:02.7] TG: All right, sounds good.
[0:31:03.8] VF: We still didn’t get to our back-cover blurbs. That’s what we’ll talk about next week.
[0:31:07.9] TG: Oh, man. Yeah. All right, we’ll talk about that next –
[0:31:09.9] VF: Resistance is strong on the back-cover blurbs, I’m telling you.
[0:31:12.8] TG: Oh, that’s an easy part. We’ll get to that. We’ll knock it out.
[0:31:15.3] VF: All right. All right, then we’ll do that next week. Okay, I’m off to e-mail Eloisa.
[END OF EPISODE]
[0:31:22.4] TG: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Book Launch Show. For all the past episodes and show notes or to connect with me, you can go to booklaunchshow.com. I have dozens of free book marketing resources and articles that you can access at my website booklaunch.com.
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[END]
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